00:00:09,930	It is 5:30 and I will call the Mandan Planning and Zoning Commission for May 27th to order. Roll call please. Commissioner horn. Commissioner Huber. Commissioner Lange. here. Commissioner Mudder here. Mayor Froelich here. Commissioner IntVeld. Commissioner McLean. Here. Commissioner Smith. Here. Commissioner Hammond. Here. Commissioner Gardner here. Commissioner Renner here. Chair Robinson here.

00:00:51,500	Next item. We have the copy of the minutes from April 27th. Do we have any changes? Chair Robinson, I can move to approve. I’ll second. Commissioner McLean second. Commissioner Hammond to approve the minutes of April 27th. Any questions? On roll call. Vote, please. Commissioner Lange. Yes. Yes. Commissioner Mudder. Yes. Mayor Froelich. Yes. Commissioner McLean. Yes. Commissioner Smith.

00:01:38,500	Yes. Commissioner Hammond. Yes. Commissioner Gardner. Yes. Commissioner Renner. Yes. Chair Robinson. Yes. Minutes are approved, and we’ll move to the first of public hearings. Item number one. Consider a special use permit for lot one, block one. Vic Fleck subdivision. Address is 2264 Seney Road, South. Rachel. Good evening, commissioners.

00:02:04,170	This is. I’m trying to see where this is a lot. Um, so this is a special use permit request for the use of propane storage and distribution at lot one, block one of the Vic Fleck subdivision. Township one, 39 North, range 81 West, city of Mandan at 22264 Sunny Road South. Um, here we go.

00:02:30,870	This is the future land use map and zoning. This is just west of downtown. Um, the property is zoned CB Business Commercial and is shown in the future land use plan. As we’re all residential, though, this area is unlikely to be down zoned to rural residential.

00:02:47,930	The owners are proposing to put two 30,000 gallon propane tanks in the existing truck yard, located on the south end of the site. Um, I’m not entirely sure if I can rotate this or not. There you go. Um, so this would be where they’re sitting on the site. The building department will review any final plans.

00:03:08,200	Oh, goodness. I’m about to make you all six. Sorry. There you go. Um, the building department will review final plans and ensure that the, um, any needed floodplain regulations are followed as the floodplain is close to the proposed location. The total area of the site is 21.7 acres.

00:03:27,700	Access to the property is via Sunny Road South and will not change. There are no utilities that should be affected by this installation. The findings of fact are in your packet.

00:03:44,000	Um, there are no comments from staff and the recommendation is to recommend approval of the special use permit for lot one, block one of the Vic Fleck Subdivision as presented. And I can take any questions. Questions for Rachel. Rachel. Rachel, is there a fence going around that whole area? No. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? Rachel, where. Exactly is this located? It’s west of. It’s west of downtown. Um, let me see.

00:04:29,930	I don’t, but I can get it pulled. Up. West of the Heart River. West of downtown. It’s south of the Heart River. Um. Knife River, gravel pits to the east of that. If you’re to help me out on where maps are. I’ve lost them. Departments. Our city. Any questions for Rachel at this time? With none.

00:05:18,100	I will open it up for public comments or questions. We’ll take any questions or comments on item number one. If there’s anybody in the room that has a question on item number one. We’re calling in. One more time. Any questions on item number one? With none I’ll close. We turn it back to the commission.

00:06:00,170	Mr. chairman, I move to recommend approval. I that’s you for lot one block one big Fleck subdivision as presented. Second. Motion by Commissioner Smith. Second by Commissioner McLean. Motion is to recommend approval of the Special Use permit for lot one, block one Vic Fleck Subdivision. As presented. Questions. With none. Roll call. Vote please. Commissioner Huber. Yes.

00:06:36,970	Commissioner Lange. Yes, Commissioner Mudder. Yes. Mayor Froelich. Yes, Commissioner McLean. Yes, Commissioner Smith. Yes, Commissioner Hammond. Yes, Commissioner Gardiner. Yes, Commissioner Renner. Yes. Chair Robinson. Yes. Motion is passed. We’ll move to public hearing number two. Consider a special use permit for lot 12, block 18, Mandan. Proper address is 210 Fifth Avenue, northwest. Rachel.

00:07:10,670	Commission, I’m going to go to the zoning map first. So the. See where we’re at downtown here. Just the zoning map. Um, okay, so in the packet, that’s fine. Um, the proposed special use permit is for the use of a former church as a wedding and event venue at the property.

00:07:40,000	That is lot 12, block 18, Mandan proper Township 139 North, range 81 West city of Mandan. The address is 210 Fifth Avenue Northwest. The property is zoned Downtown fringe. It is the site of a former church in a largely residential area. Um, that’s on the corner of second Street Northwest and Fifth Avenue Northwest.

00:08:01,270	I’m gonna take you down to okay. Um, the total area is 0.16 acres. Parking for the property is provided via on street and off street parking stalls. Um, the application plans to use this location for weddings, receptions or other events. There are about 23 existing parking spaces.

00:08:21,300	This number will go down slightly with the current reconstruction of the street. Um. The applicant is also planning to purchase the neighboring home for later use. That home is not part of this special use permit. The application states that hours of operation would cease at midnight. In a pre-planning meeting, the applicant stated that alcohol would be served.

00:08:39,730	Um, likely a beer and wine license. At that meeting. City staff encouraged the applicant to meet with neighbors and discuss the proposed use. Concerns regarding parking were the main item of concern at the pre-planning meeting.

00:08:56,900	Staff is confident that the surrounding public parking on the street, particularly a block south and the commercial diagonal on street parking, is able to handle the parking needs of the facility. Um, that is one of the trade offs of a downtown property is that there is public parking. There’s very little private. Parking. Um, access will remain in existing locations. Utilities will not change. There are no known easements.

00:09:15,670	Property on all sides is zoned downtown fringe. The future land Use Plan designates areas commercial, and this use would generally be considered a commercial use. There were two letters received in opposition after the letters were sent to 99 adjacent property owners in May. Um, I believe you have copies of those.

00:09:43,270	Um, there is the special use permit, um, evaluation criteria is in your pocket. I’ll go through those for this one. Um, will the proposed use be designed, constructed, operated and maintained? Supposed to be compatible in appearance with the existing or intended character of the neighborhood? The previous use was also a congregational assembly. Use different hours of the day, but still in assembly. Use.

00:10:03,070	Um, well, the proposed use involved activities, processes, materials, equipment or conditions of operation will be incompatible with the neighborhood due to production of traffic, noise, smoke fumes, glare, odors. No, the operator will need to follow Mandan noise regulations. It is a downtown commercial structure, so downtown commercial activity is standard.

00:10:25,600	Will the hours of operation of the proposed use be different than the adjacent uses? Yes, there may be some there as it is not a residential facility. Will the proposed use require exterior lighting with type intensity greater than adjacent uses? Surrounding properties are residential in nature, so operating hours for this are estimated to end at midnight.

00:10:44,130	Additional lighting would be to illuminate a sign and would not be pointed into neighboring residences. Will the site have sufficient area to provide the parking required for the use? Yes. Again, based on that, downtown parking, and will the proposed use require adjustments to normal lot size, height and setback requirements of the district? We said no.

00:11:01,270	Um, the recommendation in the packet is to recommend approval of the special use permit for an event venue. There are very few uses for old churches. Um, in downtown areas. So the evaluation of staff is that it would most likely fit into the neighborhood. There are opposition letters. I believe those owners. Are here.

00:11:20,970	So if you have any questions, I can answer. Them. Questions for Rachel. Rachel. I get a question and you’ve answered it twice. But I’m going to reiterate it. Um, it’s a special event.

00:11:43,900	How come? Do we have anything compared to the restaurants for amount of parking? They have? Um, versus an event, special event area like this? Yeah. So I don’t know that there’s a huge difference between restaurants and special events, but in downtown areas in general, your typical understanding is that your trade off is that public street parking instead of private street parking, there’s a great deal of public parking in the surrounding area, particularly 2 to 3 blocks away.

00:12:00,000	I know where North Dakotans we don’t like to walk, but in downtown areas it is generally expected that you may have to walk up to 2 or 3 blocks, and there is plenty of parking in that range. Thank you. Rachel. Any other questions? Uh, Rachel, if I’m understanding the application, the event center would have an occupancy of 150 approximately.

00:12:23,070	Um, I don’t know. I drove by there today, and I’m struggling with, uh, events and parties there with 150 people in that area, in a residential area. Um, I know it was also compared to the V3 venue three in downtown. I look that up in that capacity.

00:12:40,200	Of that one at 75. And next door is our business is not home. So that’s probably more of a statement than a question. But that’s where I’m struggling with this one. Any other comments or questions? None. At this time. I’ll open it up for public comments. Questions on item number two. If anybody’s present. Yes.

00:13:10,770	Step up to the microphone and state your name for the record, please. Kevin Locker I live within 300ft of the said property. And thank you so much for allowing us to come here and voice our opinion. I believe there’s a lot of us here that are are ready to do that.

00:13:30,200	Um, I have a few questions and then a few comments regarding that. One is, is I couldn’t help it. In the package, you have the difference between the current zoning and the future zoning. Is that a result of the special request? The future land use would be the intended land use. If the property were to be redeveloped at a future point.

00:13:54,200	It is not something that in this case would, I would say, materially make a difference, given that it’s essentially a commercial use and a commercial area, it would be more of a question if someone, for example, were to say, I would want to put an industrial use in the downtown area.

00:14:13,930	What’s the designation for fringe? I guess I’m I’m trying to divide the difference between the what do they call it, the downtown fringe. What it’s currently zoned as. If I can. Answer, okay, I just find it unusual that we’re doing that at this particular point, or it seems like it’s being a result of the special use permit. So the future land use map was created.

00:14:42,230	Many years ago. It’s been it was done. It was done prior to. This. Point. Prior. To that. That’s just my question. Um, and again, the biggest concern that I think we have, um, is the parking situation, uh, when you say you had 30, uh, spots again and you did mention that fifth is going to change dramatically, there’s

00:15:02,830	only 20 spots open on fifth period. Okay. And there’s 13 across there. The biggest reason that the that the Fifth Avenue was changed was, is for safety. And now we’re going to have cars pulling in and out at midnight. Um, after alcohol is served on a street that’s very narrow.

00:15:23,400	Second Street is 30ft wide from curb to curb. I drive on that street every single day. And when I drive on there, if there’s another car coming, one of us has to pull over and stop. Okay, now we’re going to have that congestion there.

00:15:36,130	And I think Connie mentioned that in her letter as well. Um, so there are going to be three parallel parking spots in front of the building. Okay. Um, there’s 13 along the north side of the building that are pulling out onto fifth or on the second. Um, so yes, we’d have to walk along. People would have to walk a long way.

00:15:54,870	If you’re having 150 people in the facility at that time, you can guess that there’s going to be 75 cars here or take, you know, you have no way of knowing that right now. The current use.

00:16:08,270	And I think Connie mentioned in the back one of my neighbors and she says, now when they come, they come in on Sunday morning, arrive at 830, leave it. You know, 11. Okay.

00:16:22,270	And they have a few vehicles there, and some of them are, you know, vans with a lot of children in there and so on and so forth. But so, you know, they don’t have as much of a problem with parking. Second, again, only allows for parking on one side of the street. Um, so that’s also a concern as well. Um, alcohol is going to be served.

00:16:39,670	Um, the other thing that, you know, there was a mention in here that there’s going to be any odors or anything like that. If you have 150 people in there, 20% people of those people smoke. I’m guessing you’re going to have 20 or 30 people standing out in front of that building, smoking until all hours of the night.

00:16:55,970	And, you know, and the noise is going to be of concern for me and for our family. So, um, you know, right now they have they use that facility on Sundays, probably if at 150 people that are there, you know, it’s a small amount of people per month.

00:17:16,530	Um, if you have this facility here, could be open for 20, you know, every day of the year and have an event in there. Highly unlikely. But even if you have ten months or ten per month, you’re going to have, you know, 1500 cars and people going in if they’re at capacity each one of those days.

00:17:35,200	So again, it’s there’s there is a propensity for a lot of noise, a lot of traffic, a lot of things that, uh, you know, we have to deal with the traffic on second already with the law enforcement people going by there and so on and so forth, which is, you know, in Sixth Avenue where I live, a lot of traffic there. I know I chose that.

00:17:47,530	So I we, we live with it, but do we, do we need to add another level of that to that. So those are my concerns. And I think some of the things that that were stated in the, uh, in the staff review, um, yeah.

00:18:05,130	And I don’t know what what is the noise regulation? When does it get too loud? Not those things. So but I think there’s going to be, um, concerns by the neighborhood. So that’s all I have to say. Thank you. Any other comments? Item number two. My name is Heather Hoover, and I also live on Sixth Avenue.

00:18:34,470	And I have the exact same concerns that he does with the parking and the litter and noise and odors and all of the things that will come about. Okay. Thank you.

00:19:06,470	Do we have the applicant here? Would you like to speak? Um, first off, I’d like to thank everybody for giving me the opportunity and coming out and speaking with us today. Um, I definitely want to hear everybody’s concerns and be able to help alleviate them.

00:19:24,970	Um, the reason V3 and U3 was mentioned is that my current venue that I have on Main Street, and it is 75 or less people, but, um, I’ve been open for years now and we haven’t had any issues with police. We’ve never had anyone overserved, we’ve never had anyone arrested from our facility. Um, we try to keep it classy, um, family friendly.

00:19:46,470	Uh, you know, my entire intent is to make it a more luxurious space, a more classy space that people can rent that is smaller than most of the larger venues, but still bigger than the smaller size ones that are currently available. So more families can have weddings that fit within their budget.

00:20:06,330	And, um, you know, I definitely will try to avoid as much odors and music, um, issues that I definitely can. Um, we’re not planning to throw Raiders. It’s going to be more along the lines of like family friendly events like birthday parties, baby showers, bridal showers, small weddings. Um, you know, uh, events along those lines.

00:20:25,530	So we’re not planning to have, like, some large music event where we’re having concerts every weekend or anything along those lines. Um, and if at any point, if we do get to open up and you have any concerns, I’m an open book. I would love for you to contact me. Um, let me know if there’s anything that’s concerning to you.

00:20:40,400	And I definitely want to alleviate that, because I also don’t want the reputation as the place that has crazy people there leaving a mess around the neighborhood. That’s not my intent. I want it to be a family, family friendly event space. And as far as the parking was, um, I do plan to attach a parking map.

00:20:59,730	I do the same thing with my current venue that tries to let people know where public parking is and where the, um, current monitored parking is located so that people have an idea of where to go.

00:21:15,730	And I do plan to try to get as many people over to First Street to park along that street where there’s plenty of public open parking. Um, so that they’re mostly parking down there, out of the way. Um, of course, there may be some elderly people that will try to reserve those closed parking spots for because it’s a lot harder for them to trek an entire block down the street. But that is our intent with that.

00:21:33,930	And then, um, it does have a garage behind the house, so we’ll plan to have the bride and groom park in the back there at that spot. So they’re also not trekking all the way down the street. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Commissioners.

00:21:57,930	I’m just here to answer any questions you may have about the property for my client. Um, we do have it under contract with the sellers as well. Um, and sellers are are wanting us to come here to present. And Cassandra did a wonderful job. But if you have any other additional questions regarding the property, please ask too.

00:22:11,300	And I’ll. I’ll try to answer as best I can for you guys. If you need. It, state your name, please. Charles Riker with Aspen Group. Okay. Thank you. Sorry, Charles, for the record, to see you. Any questions for Charles at this time? Thank you. thank you. Real quick question for you.

00:22:35,800	And they brought it up. Are you guys having. And I don’t know if it’s a priority either. Handicapped parking in front of the building or on the side of the building. What is the plan there? I would assume that there would probably be a need some handicapped parking for regulation wise.

00:22:52,870	Um, just being a commercial property. Um, yeah, it’s not necessarily the question. We also are planning. Cassandra could maybe talk about this if she would like, but we also have been working with some architects as well for making sure some of the building is Ada compliant as well. For handicapped people. As to. Thank you. Thank you.

00:23:11,700	I have a question. What’s going to happen to that house? Is that part of the deal? Yep. The house is also under contract with the buyer. Um, Cassandra plans to purchase the house along with it.

00:23:26,070	Um, and she can maybe talk to additional use, but it would be more so just for, um, wedding prep ahead of time for bridal bridal suite. Yeah. Sorry, I did forget to mention that part.

00:23:43,730	Um, I plan to use it as a bridal suite to begin with, where the bride and the bridesmaids can just get ready, get prepped up, and ready to go for the day of wedding. Um, at this time, that’s all I plan to do with it. Uh, maybe over time, it would maybe be lodging for the bride and groom. But I’m not doing that. Especially to start out. That’s just possible future plans that depending how everything goes.

00:24:01,400	And, um, the plans in the future, it could be a thing. But as of right now, it’s just a bridal suite to get ready. But anybody else like to step up and make comments or questions? I live right across the alley from the church, and I can see

00:24:26,870	a lot of noise going on back in there. A lot of people smoking, hanging out, doing whatever at night, and all that noise is going to keep our dogs up and barking at night, keeping us up. And I just don’t. And then there’s the parking too.

00:24:48,730	I, I don’t know, I just don’t think it’s realistic to have the venue in that place. Okay. Thank you. Um, Tiffany Geyser, I live at 307. Um, on Fifth Avenue Northwest. My concern is, is if the if this.

00:25:17,070	What’s the limit for? What’s the mandated amount for security being required? I know when you have to get married, you always got to say, oh, you need security officer. Is that going to be part of your. At 100 people, you need one. Okay. And then for each other.

00:25:34,670	And then maybe since the parking thing is so tight because I live right there on fifth, nobody reads signs, nobody sees that there’s no parking on this side. They still park. And then it just makes it really difficult to go in and out of cars. Maybe if you were to like and I’m not saying that I’m up for this, it’s just going to be really congested.

00:25:52,470	We enjoy our evenings out and the porch because we don’t have air conditioning, so we just enjoy as much outdoor time as we can because we have an enclosed backyard with trees.

00:26:08,330	And it’s it would be rather disturbing to hear, and I know there’s going to be security, but maybe if you were to bring in like charter them in or something, it would make it easier on the neighborhood is one solution I found. I do want to see the building used. It is a very historic house. The guy who used to own it was immaculate with it. I mean, he painted that house at least 4 or 5 times just to get it right.

00:26:25,430	That’s my only concern. Is the parking mostly in the evenings, disturbances. Thank you. Take one more comment. If somebody would like to speak. Hello, my name is Donna Freilich and I live right next to Tiff, and I wholeheartedly agree with what she is saying.

00:26:57,000	What Kevin has said, um, we have no parking on our side of the street. It’s on the opposite side. So that and it’s kitty corner from the church. So they’re going to be parking on the other side where they can find room. Um, and also there’s no signs there that says no parking on our side.

00:27:14,530	And so there are concerns of people parking there, but we enjoy our, our front porch and stuff. And like Tiff said, it would be nice for something to be done with the church. However, I’m not sure that this is the best thing for our neighborhood. Um.

00:27:41,730	Like I said, they’re going to be parking very close to our house and with the drinking and that stuff, it does concern our family. Thank you. Thank you. All right. I’m Riley McElroy. I’m with the city engineering department. Um, I’ve heard a lot of concern about parking. We did a parking utilization study on First Street prior to our first street reconstruction project.

00:28:00,330	Because we did hear a lot of concerns because we were reducing some parking slots along fourth. Um, we did it along First Street. The parking utilization on that street is very, very low. I think at peak it was 5 to 8 cars, and that’s peak hour.

00:28:16,600	Um, and then as for parking on both sides of fifth, that’ll be installed with our current First Street construction project. So there’ll be parallel parking on both sides. Just to make that note. Thank you. Hi. My name is Dustin Sands. Um, in regards with the parking on first, currently we don’t have parallel parking.

00:28:46,300	Isn’t the plan to make that parallel parking? So wouldn’t that be actually reducing parking spaces available for public parking on First Street? Off of an exhibit. Quick. On. Do do do do do do do do do do do. So this was the proposed plan. Um, you can ignore fourth Street because that or fourth Avenue because that changed.

00:29:32,230	But on fifth you’ll see there’s parallel parking on both sides as well as on first. The angled parking is staying. I believe it’s actually increasing the amount of spots parking, because you’ll be able to park on both sides of fifth. So the angled parking is staying. On first Street. Yeah. And then on fourth there’s parking or angled parking on one side of it.

00:29:49,500	That was the compromise we came to through multiple meetings with business owners. To point out the church again. Church is right up here. But a block up from that, there’s still going to remain one side. No. On second Street. Okay, okay. We’ll go. Both sides. First. Yeah. North of first. Okay. There will be parallel parking North of first.

00:30:14,370	Yep. On both sides of fifth. Yep. I can zoom in here a little more. Maybe. Maybe not. I believe. The reality. Is. They’re not gonna. It doesn’t matter. If the other side or. Right there. You see that. Even on. Sundays, of course, the traffic flow on Sunday was great. And it’s in the.

00:30:34,470	Morning and very few cars moving. There’ll be parking on both sides though, so there won’t be no parking on either side. You can. But on fifth, South of second foot on fifth, South or. North of. Second, that will still be one side parking. Yep.

00:30:50,770	Until we come through with another project, which this would be Mandan proper phase three, which is scheduled for now in testimony years here 2029 roughly. I think. So then that would affect Second. Street as well. Yeah. And that would reconstruct Second. Street. The diagonal or the pulling parking there. But we would add parking along both sides of the street to that would be a full reconstruct.

00:31:11,470	It’s like if you’re parked right now on both sides, even though there isn’t parking there, you can’t get through. Just like on second. You cannot get through even when there’s people parked on the side, there’s, you know, can be and someone else is coming. You can’t. You gotta wait. And you get can’t see. Mhm.

00:31:29,630	Yeah. Then we’re widening the roadway so it’ll be wider and we’re taking up some of that. There’s very large boulevards and sorry if I don’t know which way I’m talking here. Um there’s, there’s very large boulevards in downtown Mandan and we’re able to accommodate parallel parking by taking up some of that boulevard space.

00:31:44,430	So those are some grass will be able to accommodate more parking, which is what we heard is the big concern down here.. Don’t. Off top of my head, I know Fourth Avenue was a net loss of somewhere in the 10 to 20 range, I think.

00:32:01,770	Um, and then fifth was a gain of like 3 to 5. This is rough estimate. So I can get you an answer later if you’d like one. But yeah, yeah, there’s a net loss. But why does future development play into a special use permit? That’s happening. Because of the parking.. I’m finding that difficult, you.

00:32:22,000	Because. Yeah, the reapplied for conversion is the other. The other thing may not happen for two years. I think that’s more of a racial question when it. Comes to when is the, uh, the next phase of 236 being done? So this is all happening this year. This will be done in 2026. Yeah. But the reality.

00:32:41,370	Is, is that you’re. Forecasting a parking. Change, you know, with a special use permit that’s being applied for today. So this is happening now. But not. What I’m talking Chair Second, that’s what that’s what we’re. That’s I mean that’s in our CIP to be scheduled. Out.

00:33:07,930	But that should be taken into consideration at that parking because projects not done. It will be done in 2026. Like I said, 29. We’re for an improper phase three, which is north of second, south of second, on fifth and first. There’s plenty of parking to accommodate their traffic.

00:33:30,900	They’ll have, which I would assume people would want to park on angled parking where it’s more comfortable with the park than trying to park on second, where, like you’ve. Talked about in front of our homes, and be parked out there for hours, we still got the 4th of. July parking spots are available, public parking spots are available in three blocks. On First Street, over 100.

00:33:48,970	But how are you going to get them to go down there when they need to pull on this game? She was talking about providing a parking map to her customers. I’m not trying to. I’m just saying that we have some parking. Information. They’re going to do it. You’re good. Yeah. I just go. Back and forth. Yeah.

00:34:07,170	Basically, in the comments, the math and the comments are after construction is complete in 2026. Yes. For clarification, thank you. And any other comments? And with none, I’ll close the public comment and return it back to the commission. Mr. chairman, I would maybe just share a few perspectives.

00:35:04,370	Um, I have previously, um, visited the, um, Cassandra’s event venue on on Main Street and have, um, you know, witnessed nothing but, um, upright, uh, you know, fantastic activities there. Um, just across the street. The depot has been being used as an event venue for a handful of years now, and I think also has been a favorable, uh, contribution.

00:35:29,530	I, I recognize and empathize with the concerns. However, these homes are, um, adjacent to and part of the central business district. And, um, so I think, you know, by and large, I also greatly appreciate the the desire by the applicant to expand a business in, in Mandan and, and help to bring commerce to the community and invest in

00:35:48,600	this property. Um, I think that home was a prior, uh, Renaissance zone, um, project. And so there are a number of uses that could go into this property without requiring any special use permit.

00:36:04,870	And so I think, you know, what we have outlined here, um, is a really sound plan by the applicant for a small space for celebrations, for small weddings. You know, again, those graduation parties, birthday parties, bridal baby showers, you know, those types of things. I, you know, I’m not hearing a plan here to have, uh, you know, loud music concerts and and that sort of thing.

00:36:29,170	I’m not seeing issues with outdoor noise or, um, smoking or vaping at at those other establishments. And, and so I would expect the applicant to be operating this in, in similar fashion, you know, however, if those incidents, you know, do arise, I guess that is why we, um, you know, um, do invest in the, in public

00:36:50,000	protection services. There have been some parking issues, um, you know, brought up, however, it sounds like with the construction plans that that should generally be accommodated. However, I know that the Mandan Parking Authority periodically reviews changes in those dynamics in the community and and implements changes accordingly.

00:37:10,430	But, uh, you know, otherwise, I guess by and large, I see more positives here than than negatives. And the proposal before us. Any other comments or questions? Commissioner Robinson, um, if we take a look at that neighborhood to the A block to the east used to be the Red

00:37:54,370	Isle grocery store, which did a fair amount of business. And then if we come forward, uh, to the opposite side of the block, we used to have the Legion Hall that hosted events. That was an event center. And we also across the street had the Elks Club, which hosted weddings.

00:38:13,200	And we also had the Eagles Club in close proximity. So it used to be in this town Friday and Saturday nights from now until the end of September, there were three weddings going on in that neighborhood, as well as the grocery store running.

00:38:34,600	So I’ll echo Allen’s comment that it is in the downtown business district. It has hosted these events. For a lot of years. Unfortunately, there’s not a venue left in those buildings, but, um, if we I would like to hear the alternative. I would not like to see this building sit empty. Uh, that would not be good for the neighborhood.

00:38:57,100	So I would be in favor of using this building as a an event center. Any other comments? Are we ready for a motion? Mr. chairman, I would be willing to recommend our move to recommend approval of the Special use permit for an event venue at lot 12, block 18, Mandan proper, as presented.

00:39:43,400	Do we have a second? I’m going to second that motion. Motion by Commissioner Huber. Second by Commissioner Hammond. Motion is to recommend approval of the Special use permit for an event venue at lot 12. block 18, Mandan proper, as presented. Questions.

00:40:06,630	I just I just have a comment that I just don’t know what else this becomes, or I’m kind of a nervous about what’s what it becomes. That’s kind of where my mind is at. Um, I don’t want to vote, but I mean, I just also don’t want to have a dead, dead space, so. Or something that’s undesirable that doesn’t need a zone change.

00:40:24,600	Can I add to your comment? Is that, um, it’s a church or. It used to be a church, and there is so many churches that are falling apart. And as somebody who looks at a lot of images, there’s people that are these churches are collapsing.

00:40:52,470	And I hate to see another building collapsing in Mandan or anywhere else and see it statewide or countrywide. So that’s where I’m leaning towards. And in final comments. None. Roll call. Vote please. Commissioner Huber. Yes. Commissioner lang? Yes, Commissioner Mudder. Yes. Mayor Froelich. Yes. Commissioner McLean. Yes, Commissioner Smith. Yes. Commissioner Hammond? Yes. Commissioner Gardner. Yes. Commissioner Renner. No. Chair Robinson. Yes. And motion has approved.

00:41:39,370	We’ll move on to public hearing number three. Consider a preliminary plat. Excuse me. Consider a preliminary plat and zone change for title. South Heart Terrace, fifth edition, tabled from the April 27th meeting. Rachel. Um, let me. Give me one second. Um, before we begin, Chair Robinson, I’m going to take off.

00:42:11,400	So, um, I have a conflict. My client is here. Um, and by no way. I’m just going to leave, just to make sure I’m not a part of this.

00:42:24,200	But no means is that my indication of, you know, where I stand on this, I fully support I had my broker come today. Uh, she’s, um. She speaks exactly for, um, my my thoughts on it, but I don’t want to be here for this, so. Thank you. Hey, your crews. Go ahead. Chair Commissioners. This, um, agenda documentation in front of you is exactly what you saw at last meetings.

00:42:56,270	Um, last meetings. Meeting. Um, so it’s the same, same fact sheet. At the time it was tabled. The minutes are pretty good. Recap of what occurred at the last meeting. Um, to remind you of what this particular subdivision is. Um, it’s title’s fifth. It is located south of 19th and east. Oh, goodness. And east of eighth.

00:43:27,730	Um. This property is a an approved PUD for Clover Grove subdivision. Um, I’m gonna go back to this plat, which was what was in front of you last time and which was what was tabled.

00:43:54,970	Do you want me to recap what this plot is and what the concerns were last time in detail? Commissioners, I believe all of us heard understood the first time. No. Okay, great. Perfect. I don’t really want to rehash it either, but I thought I’d check. Um, okay, so in the past month, we’ve had continuing conversations, um, at a staff level with the applicant.

00:44:13,130	Um, we have had many, many back and forth. Um, Jarratt has created an option, um, that I will pull up. I think. Don’t quote me. On this. Because I can’t find. It. Do you have it on here? Sorry. I thought we had it pulled up. Right there. Okay. Perfect. Thanks. So this is the potential, um, roadway alignment. That City Engineering has proposed.

00:45:02,300	One of the conversations, I believe, at the last meeting was that city staff, um, would like to see preservation of right of way heading eastward from the subdivision to a potential subdivision on the east side of of titles. Um, this is a proposed right of way.

00:45:25,200	Um, the original proposal had shown kind of a road that snaked around the, um, work that Gericke went through, reviewed an optimal path. It would have an 8% grade, um, which is less than the existing road right here, which is at 12%. Um, so this is at 8% going down. City staff proposed this to the applicant.

00:45:47,600	Um, they had concerns with it. They came back with a secondary proposal today, which has an access heading straight south on fourth through here. I don’t I it wasn’t drawn.

00:46:15,930	So I’m, I apologize that I’m asking you to visualize this um to fourth here and not providing access to the east um city staff’s evaluation in the quick amount of time that we’ve had to review it is that while additional access to the South would be preferred, would be great.

00:46:34,230	Um, city staff would still like to see connectivity between the two subdivisions on the east side, reserved via dedication of right of way with a waiver of protest for future development done with the development agreement. But we would not be asking the applicant to put in this road at this time for complicated. Um, so city staff’s recommendation would still be to not approve the plat as it stands today. I can answer questions, which is here. I believe Riley’s here.

00:46:58,400	Um, we can answer questions. I know the applicant is here as well. Rachel. So with your recommendation, um, is it because you want the plat to actually show that before we take action on it? The right of way to the east.

00:47:22,130	Or the or the south? The applicant has not agreed to the right of way to the east, and city staff feel that there is a need for connectivity to the east. And that would be our recommendation. Okay. Any questions for Rachel? Chair Robinson? Um. I’m trying to just kind of put the maps together here a little bit. Does. So does Clover Grove.

00:47:54,170	Does their property go all the way to the south? Because on the one on this one, it looks like it’s not completely solid. I’m just curious, is the road that’s proposed that the city is proposing going through Lyford Court? They’re going to actually go to Clover Grove’s property or is it too far south? It’s slightly south, I believe, and I don’t have a map that

00:48:14,030	shows it. I it is slightly south, but that road would is public right of way. So you would connect into the existing public right of way. Public right of way. South of what Clover Grove is. Yes, there is an access easement that goes all the way south along the east boundary of Kittles.

00:48:31,430	Can you pull up on Google Maps? I can pull up maybe the zoning map would be the. Um, 2 to 2. Yep. So this is a access easement here.

00:49:20,600	So that road would it would basically cut down right between these two, these trees here and meet it would essentially hit the south boundary of what Clover Grove is. City staff has noted that even if Clover Grove doesn’t go forward, there should still be connectivity to the east would be our collective recommendation. Rachel I’m not I. I’m I’m just here to ask questions.

00:49:43,000	So I guess I’m not understanding why you want such connectivity to the East when there’s a clover grove. That’s a big gulch there. I mean, it’s it’s a ravine, so I don’t I’m not falling. The logic. Yeah. There may never be a need for this road. City staff would just like to preserve the option.

00:50:04,530	One of the things I think that would happened in the last several years is you can see where a road was intended to go through between these two subdivisions, and right of way was not preserved. And now there is no way to get a road between these two subdivisions to provide connectivity. Sorry. Remind me again.

00:50:34,730	So the big issue that was cited the first time we talked about this was the fire risk. And I haven’t heard anybody say anything about a fire risk. I’m gonna turn you over to Mitch for that one. You know, that was the biggest reason for wanting this road, for access to the fire department. So perfect. Thank you. Chair Robinson. Commissioners.

00:50:54,070	Uh, I was waiting for the invitation to come up, so. Thank you. Uh, yeah. Um, so, as mentioned, these these issues are very, very complicated. And I think we can all appreciate that we have met with the development team several times, both myself and other city staff.

00:51:12,330	And the question was asked, um, you know, is this a connectivity issue or is it a truly a fire issue? And the answer to that is it’s it’s d it’s all the above. Um, technically, um, given the proposed lots, um, just immediately south of 19th Street, the intent of the fire code can be met.

00:51:35,070	There’s the intent. Is there, um, but as city staff and long term planning practices and best practices are followed, we have to look at development as a whole, as a as a city, as we develop as a whole. And it would preclude us if we don’t preserve that right of way.

00:51:53,130	Again, we’re not asking for the street to be built today. We’re asking to preserve the right of way so that at some point, if the road is needed, we have the ability to build that road.

00:52:06,200	Um, if we build a house there, there’s virtually no chance of that road ever being built. Um, so that is our ask is to preserve, preserve right of way as Rachel had mentioned. And if a road does come in further to the south or other access is obtained, as mentioned in some of our meetings, um, you know, our proposal is to align that potential right of way today so

00:52:26,000	that it could be vacated in the future if it’s not needed. Um, and then turn it into a developable lot. Mitch, what do you think would trigger opportunity to vacate it? All right.

00:52:52,500	If, uh, if no development happens to the east, is there a time frame window? Is there? What is there? So, Chair Robinson, to answer that, it’s kind of a it depends answer. Um, the if the development does not happen to the East again, no further development or very little development to the south would be able to occur without that secondary access. Again.

00:53:10,730	And it depends on, um, what the development plans are further to the south, I guess. So it would be we, we would preserve that right of way until it’s clearly evident that we don’t need that right of way anymore, which again, would be a road either from the east or potentially further way southwest. Um, long term, you know, which.

00:53:32,030	All right, Mitch, I’m going to ask you one kind of hard, difficult question. So sorry. We’re friends. Remember that after this, uh, practicality reasons say there was a fire. This is all built up. Besides that one lot that has that easement for that road access.

00:53:49,730	What are really the chances the fire trucks are going to go up that 8% greater, not go right to Fourth Avenue and get into the development as fast as possible? I’m just asking for fire reasons, not for what the city wants for connectivity and stuff like that. Sure. Sure, Robinson, Commissioner Um, that was a hot topic.

00:54:07,530	I wasn’t at the last meeting, but I had to go back and rewatch it. And it should be noted that this potential new road that engineer Jarek has, uh, preliminary design is that 8 or 9% in the, um, 8%. Okay. And the existing road is at 12%, I believe. So it’s actually less steep, um, than the existing road. Okay.

00:54:32,370	I’m just looking at the logistics because you would have to go on Macedonia and then turn up. I’m just. Okay. I share what I’m saying. I understand what you’re. Yeah. Direct line to wherever the fire is said fire is in that development. So it’s ingress and egress.

00:54:48,670	Um, There’s been several case studies in the United States, most recently the Palisade Fire in California, where egress was cited for the direct result of, I don’t know the exact casualty total, but it was. I believe it was close to 100.

00:55:04,470	I could be way off, but it was more than one. And, you know, we as city leadership and I believe as a community, we need to think about those situations long term. And, um, we hope that never happens. But we want to make sure that we are prepared for it. If it does happen. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

00:55:24,170	Thank you. Any other questions for Rachel or Mitch? If we need. I just have a I know there was another concern from the last meeting and I know we talked about this, but again, the cost of this road to put in that was something that we never talked

00:55:47,730	about. Um, and then I would like to know how far the fire department is away from this development. If you could answer that for us. I’m going to pull this up. Um, for illustration purposes, this is from the applicant.

00:56:19,200	I don’t I think there might be some dispute on, like where these circles actually lie, but the development of this particular property is one of the things that would call into need. The road that goes to the east. So if you were to build this road and utilize special assessments, there would be a wide range of properties being assessed. The cost of the road.

00:56:42,130	It wouldn’t simply be most likely the developer, because the developer probably wouldn’t own enough of this property in order to have to pay for the whole road. If that makes sense. So that’s my one comment, and then I’m going to turn it up over to. Riley for cost.

00:56:58,530	We also have a fire response map that I’m going to pull up here. I’m actually this is my presentation I’m given tomorrow to our staff, and I have the fire response map in it. So give me two seconds here. I can get this pulled up. So here’s our fire response maps. It’s kind of the best I can do.

00:57:30,430	Um, so we’re talking about this area right over here in this orange color. So it’s 8 or 10 to 12 minutes. It looks like to respond. Um, this map was used to to figure out response times for station three versus not having station three.

00:57:48,600	Um, but station two is kind of a, I think station want to respond to this, but that’s kind of shows you how long it would take fire to, to reach the area. Um, as for cost, uh, ballpark number, probably 1 million to 1 million and a half dollars. Um, that’s pretty standard for, uh, roadway reconstruction project or roadway construction projects. New development, Greenfield development. Is there do you have a proposed.

00:58:09,170	I can’t remember if we’ve ever done this. Like, is the next station. Fire station is supposed to be over there. So this would be the potential location for station three up here. Okay. Um, and I have that map as well for the fire response. Time station for self fire or not. That would be a question for Mitch.

00:58:29,430	Thank you. Um, yeah. So as mentioned, our response times are probably that 8 to 12 minute mark, depending on exactly where we’re at in that neighborhood.

00:58:50,200	Um, as soon as the June, as soon as June 9th, we have it on the ballot to, um, secure funding source to to procure land for a potential station for at some point in the future down there. So we don’t have a specific location identified, but at some point, as a city, we believe we will need a station down there. Yes. Mitch, how much time do you want to get to a residential home? Chair Robinson.

00:59:13,870	Commissioners, our our goal is to be to 90% of our calls in that four minute mark. I know in the insurance business, they actually have a cut off line where they charge higher premiums. If you’re six minutes away, I don’t know what that is. but seven. Seven miles. You do get a good idea. No other questions at this time. I will open it up.

00:59:55,570	I’ll open up the public hearing. And for comments or questions. Chair Robinson. In a court of law, you have to ask the judge for permission to approach, and. You may approach. I just want to make sure that we have a this handout in front of you, which Abe was kind enough to prepare.

01:00:26,500	Just take one. If you wouldn’t pass it on, it was on the screen. But I wanted to make, uh, make it available on. paper because it addresses the, the main issue that we thought we were working on, which is fire. Um.

01:00:49,270	This is the two times the, uh, distance between the access points. Uh, so the two access points are 1200ft, so twice that is 2400ft. If you follow the two radius is there. So, uh, anything that’s within both of those circles meets the fire code. And we have talked to the, um, chief and had a good conversation.

01:01:17,470	And the only question mark would be on the far southeast corner there. Um, the about to be renamed Lift Ridge Court. Uh, that, you know, our question is, well, should be excluded because it’s only catching the front of that lot. Mike, I’m going to interrupt a second. Yeah, just get close to the microphone. Please.

01:01:37,370	Try to catch me there. Thank you. Uh, so, uh, and and, uh, Chief Bitz said we can get our trucks there. That’s good enough for us. So to my way of thinking, fire is not an issue. We’re meeting the code. We’re meeting. We’re meeting the rules that have been set up for this very thing.

01:02:01,400	I wanted to, um. Well, I want to do one thing for Derek, because I think he was, um, properly upset with last month’s meeting because, um, he was pilloried for creating the Snake Road, and he he had actually nothing to do with creating the Snake Road. So that was really unfair to him.

01:02:25,430	And I wanted to publicly, you know, recognize that that was a it wasn’t intentional. It was like, you want something to the East. I think Abe and Will came up with the Snake Road idea, not not Jarek. So I want clear that not not his idea and he should not be held responsible for that.

01:02:42,470	Um, then the next thing I wanted to do was talk to folks about the larger vision. For what? What is it that I’m trying to do? And what is this? What is my team trying to do here? And and that gets us, um, just and I just want to take like, 2 or 3 minutes for this

01:02:59,830	so that you guys really understand what we’re trying to do for Mandan here. Uh, I’ve only met with Mayor Froelich about about this. I haven’t talked with the rest of you, so I think it would be a time with worth, worthwhile.

01:03:19,330	Um, I went to the Saint Joe’s Montessori school, uh, about two hours ago, and I walk in, and I’m tall, right? Six foot five. And this little kid, this little three year old greets me at this classroom, and he looks up at me and he says, would you like some tea? Like, would you like some three year old? And they have these these kids learning what? Hospitality.

01:03:41,230	Right. And he watches. He he gets the tee hee hee. Um, he watches me drink it. He sees that my cup jumps. He comes over and asks, would you like some more? And then, uh, and then he he takes the tea when he says when I tell him I don’t

01:03:58,530	want anymore, and he washes the cups and he puts them, like, on the dry rack, rinses them. And this Montessori thing just grabbed my heart like, whoa, this is this is so cool because I know how my grandkids behave. It ain’t like that, right? It’s like chaos.

01:04:17,670	And so, um, they’re doing something with this vision of of the human person and the vision of the child in particular with Montessori, that is just transformative, I guess, is the word that comes to my mind because, um, it’s so different from the way our culture has gone with, with what a human being is.

01:04:40,630	And they start with the, with the, with the, like, the absorbent mind, you know, like we all know that up until age seven, you can learn 17 languages. Like there’s something really special going on in that young person’s brain. Uh, in the early stages.

01:04:59,870	So Montessori recognizes all of these things, and, um, my, my reason for buying the land was to bring together all of the great things that have happened in the Bismarck Mandan area for Montessori.

01:05:28,630	So there’s the the Catholic Church’s only order for teaching Montessori is is valued where in Mandan we have the Institute of the National Catholic Montessori Institute at the University of Mary. So we’re there teaching Montessori teachers over there. Right. There’s the there’s a two very successful Montessori schools here. Um, and there was a high school that really the one of the very few Catholic, Montessori, uh, high schools in Mandan.

01:05:53,130	So all this, like we are the global center for Montessori. And I thought that like a beautiful chunk of land would be that would be like the global campus for for this. And there would be things like, um, let’s see. Nancy, can you bring up the, the, um.

01:06:20,330	Did you get the exhibits or Jordan do you have the stations, the commissioners to see that? I sent you a picture of the called the stations you have that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know, I know, but I’m just I’m just about done with this vision, and this is.

01:06:40,670	So what we wanted to do was to have, like, in, in, um, down in Nebraska, there’s the stations of the cross, and it shows this, these, these metal sculptures. And there have seen this, but my idea is like, not stations of the cross, the stations of the child. So all the way through this beautiful land that we have, there would be like 10 or 12 stations, like devoted to the principles of like what is Montessori seen in children. Right.

01:07:00,470	So you could go walking on this land, you’d see like you see pheasants, right? And you see groves and you see all this beautiful stuff. You’d see prairie grass and you’d see these statues of what? Um, what is it about children that is so unique? So I’m envisioning Mandan as, like, the city that loves kids,

01:07:19,070	right? The city that really knows children in a way that nobody else in the country is really recognizing. And I see it as a destination. Like this is something that could be a make Mandan a destination in the world of education.

01:07:37,530	Is that the statue there? Okay, so that’s the we’ve talked to those artists that created that. And the idea is not to, again, not to create the stations of the cross, but the higher those artists to create a stations of the child, so that these virtues that we notice about children would be like, wow, look at this, look at this, look like the beauty

01:07:54,800	that God has created in each individual child. So that’s that’s where it’s going, right? Um, so it’s about parenting and about children, and that’s why this land was important. Did you have any questions about that? I’m guessing not. We’re good there. Okay. So then the concerns, um, about the land itself.

01:08:19,870	Now, I in general, it just seems to me like this connectivity thing has gone way, way, way too far. Um, it’s it’s like we have to build neighborhoods of filled with houses to pay for connectivity to, to buy the streets, to pay for the streets.

01:08:44,930	It’s like there’s no room in in Mandan for, like, just a beautiful, beautiful campus. How do we do that? Like, what am I going to 1 million to 1 million and a half dollars? I’m going to go ask donors for that money, because the Montessori land isn’t going to be able to pay that.

01:09:07,630	It’s it’s like, how does this work? Like, there’s no there’s like it’s it’s kind of a fantasy thing that like way, way out there and like the, the reality is that it just kills kills the project. We can’t it can’t be done because I’m not.

01:09:27,630	The donors will buy a parking lot or they’ll buy a street, but they’re not going to fund a street to nowhere, right into a ravine. It’s like, what are we doing? It makes it makes no, no sense at all to me. Uh, a couple other things. Abe did look at, and they tried. I tried to get Derek and Abe to share numbers and such.

01:09:46,800	Abe does not think that that 8% is the grade he has. Major. Um, he just doesn’t think that the numbers are going to work for Jared. Glenn. And so to me, that’s another reason, in addition to the completely whimsical financing for how this would could possibly work is that the engineering is really, really unsound.

01:10:08,830	Uh, let’s see, I did have, um, I think you understand the Fourth Avenue option is, is that clear to you all, like we would we would not sell those two lots because. So that would be access from Fourth Avenue coming all the way down into the Montessori.

01:10:28,500	So we’re trying to we’re trying to not think about, well, what would somebody in 50 years, you know, near Fort Yates, what would they need for connectivity. No, we’re looking at like a real like like the neighbors that we have right now.

01:10:50,330	So as we build out the streets, we think about, well, Montessori is going to need some street access, right? So that was our effort to respond to that. Uh, the people on the East, the, the Clover Grove folks, have just kind of disappeared from the face of the earth.

01:11:10,930	And I’m not you know, we spent months trying to work with those guys, and and now it’s like he put a couple thousand bucks into it and it’s like, not a not a priority. So I just don’t let’s see why I should be, why that should kill the project for the whole, for the whole community. That’s, um. It’s not right. Uh oh. One one last thing, I guess is the the, um. Cul de sac itself here.

01:11:38,470	The one that where we, uh, where we have what I dubbed Derrick Lane. I thought that was a good day for that road. Derrick Lane. Um, Jarek didn’t particularly like. But it was. It was a, uh, better than Lyford Court. Um, that if if we put that road in.

01:11:59,330	I understand that like, this is the crown jewel of the whole property. It’s like it’s the best views in, in in everything that we’ve got. So to turn it into a through street, it will affect adversely affect the property, the value of every one of those lots, in addition to costing like the realtors have said, like 150,000 $200,000 for the lot itself.

01:12:25,570	So this is the most beautiful, um, view lots in Mandan and wrecking it with this road. That’s what I got. Thank you for your patience.

01:12:44,200	I do agree with you that these are the view lots, and I and I brought up the same recommendation at the last meeting. Is is do you dedicate one of these lots? I would take one of the lots to the north and dedicate an easement through there, you know, and so you can salvage that corner because that is the best corner. But, uh, um, actually it would be down here. Okay.

01:13:05,500	So. but I’ll ask you because I did ask you at the last meeting. So I’ll ask you again at this meeting. Um, are you adamant that an easement on that and on the east end of this development is not in the cards? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And I’m. No, I thank you for your. Okay, Frank. Answer.

01:13:31,630	Chair Robinson. Mr. Lyford, I’m. I agree on the Montessori. I think it’s the the way to go. Um, but I’m a bit confused here. Nobody’s asking him to build a road. Correct. There’s no money going to be spent at this point. Or in five years or ten years, possibly. Right? Wrong. With all respect.

01:13:54,070	Okay, so if you take the lot out, you would consider that money. But as far as building a road, you don’t have to build a road right now. Correct? It’s unclear to me when we’d have to build the road or what the conditions are.

01:14:13,970	And I think Rachel had mentioned earlier that the cost of the road would be assessed to the entire neighborhood. Mayor, chair, commissioners. Mr. LaForge. Yes. So the the intent would be that we would preserve the right of way through an easement to be developed at such a time that it becomes necessary.

01:14:36,930	Um, and then, yes, that it would be special assessed across the full development, potentially the development to the east, any development to the south. I, um, would also note that through the course of our conversations, there have been a number of proposals on that southwest corner.

01:14:56,530	At one point there was a discussion of Event center, a school, a hotel, Montessori school, all of those have different, very different traffic needs. And so depending on what that future development looks like, which isn’t under discussion today and isn’t something that we are, we can really take into consideration with this particular subdivision, whatever that southwest area happens to develop as may have different implications for when that road

01:15:17,400	would be needed, right? If it’s a montessori school, there’s 50 kids coming in and out of every day. I think Riley and probably Eric would agree that, like the traffic needs for that are probably not going to be enough to require that road to the east to go in.

01:15:35,000	If it’s a 500 person event center and 700 housing units spread across the southwest and southeast areas, that might be a development scenario that would require that Eastridge going. We don’t know how it’s going to develop, and there’s not a proposal, a firm proposal or a plan for it. So I the city staff is just asking for the right of way to be preserved.

01:15:56,370	And, and to my way of thinking, mayor. And again, I apologize for the curtains on my answer there, but it’s like that’s a 3 to $500,000 bill to me is what it would cost. These lots are, by the way, they’re pretty much pre-sold.

01:16:12,570	We’ve got people who say, I will buy the I will buy those lots right now. All of them. All of you. Lots. So this is like a to take one is significant. And you wrecking the others because there’s not a cul de sac. People like cul de sacs.

01:16:31,600	So there there is some there’s still value there, but it’s not as much as what we’ve got now. Yeah. That’s why I’d move it to the lot to the north of the cul de sac, and then force the other developer to come and meet it. Basically. Mr. LaForge, just a quick question. For. You.

01:16:49,300	To. So, I mean, basically what the city is wanting, they want an easement to potentially never build a road. Um, would it be like lot ten? What if they went got away from the view? Lots. Say you went that way and just didn’t easement and took a lot 10 or 11 or something like that.

01:17:09,700	Kept your view a lot. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. So basically I’m thinking if he did something here and then did the road this way, have you guys ever considered that? Did you know what I mean? Or here I’m just spitballing. You know, you keep your then you have. You’re only losing this one lot.

01:17:28,930	You’re not losing a lot, but potentially you you won’t build on it for a while. Just the thought. Yeah. And I it’s not going to I was talking about here like if you want to. Right. Something like that or this lot here. So then. Then there’s. A. Neighbor there you have to worry about. That’s an existing home. Sorry guys. I don’t have.

01:17:53,730	A lot. I think so, yeah. Oh. And then they would go. Here. So this is. It necessarily wouldn’t have to be 10 or 11. I’m just saying if you went to one of those lots, you keep your access, your view I get it, it gives you another access and then it doesn’t take the prime lots. Then either.

01:18:26,370	Potentially. Sorry. Yes. Chair Robinson, I guess that’s what I’m having a tough time wrapping my head around is there’s a lot of this is so contingent upon what you do developing farther south.

01:18:44,600	In my mind, if we had just a blank sheet of paper and we could start over and we could say, okay, well, the monastery is going to go south of here. So yes, let’s continue forth straight all the way down, and then we can maybe run an easement road if we have to have connectivity to the east, we could run that road a quarter mile farther south and then start going east instead of going through your view

01:18:59,530	lots. Problem is, that’s not what we have in front of us. And that’s what I’m struggling with in my mind, is how to make this work with what you’ve got right now, because I’m sure you don’t want to have to try to come up and develop the next

01:19:10,670	phase at the same time before you get this phase in place. It seems like. Just what we’ve bitten off so far. Yes. Yeah. Rachel, can you pull that? What you guys suggested for the, uh, the right of way again, please? I mean, these guys are giving me numbers and everything else,

01:19:27,900	and I forgot what where the the original thought was from the city. Thanks, Chair Commissioners. One other item. Well, um, Riley is pulling that up. That I’d like to know is right now, we don’t actually have a preliminary plat in front of you.

01:19:45,430	You have the tabled version from the last meeting. But whether the easement would be something that Mr. LaForge would end up saying yes to or Fourth Avenue going south, we don’t actually have that plat in front of you. So any recommendation either way would need to be contingent on actually seeing that. Okay. That was my one note. This would be the recommendation.

01:20:09,370	Riley does have some comments on the slopes. Yeah, I would just add that the reason that this is kind of drawn this way is because we need a 60 foot or 66 foot right of way, and lot 16 just happen to have 65.76ft.

01:20:26,300	So we kind of just drew this in here as, hey, look, you could put it right here. But Derek actually did a slope raster optimization, um, to figure out where the best place to put the road is. So here’s the slope rasterization. He did. And then he had optimum path drawing.

01:20:44,800	So this is the optimum path of the road to minimize road grade changes. Um, and then he actually took that a lot further and expanded into actually like an assembly. So you can see this green is kind of where fill would be needed.

01:21:00,600	And Aves concerns regarding this road is where Clover Grove would tie in. Um, he had said that this road where Clover Road was proposing, it was a little bit further east. Um, and if Clover Grove was to come in and build this road, we can make them push it further to the west and alleviate those concerns that Abe had had.

01:21:16,130	Um, Abe also expressed some concerns about sewer. Um, Derek also took that into consideration and did more slope rasterization as to what could be served. Um, with the sewer. So this whole area in red is what could be served off this manhole right here. Orange is this manhole. And then that lighter shade is this manhole.

01:21:35,330	So there’d be no concerns on water, sewer service, and then Jack also had. Kind of drawn up. So here’s the assembly. Here’s that 8.6% grade. Um, he also did road comparisons to see what other roads in town are, that 8.6% um, cons around there. Um, Lakota is steeper.

01:21:57,300	There’s many other roads that are steeper. And I have that and I can pull that up too, if you’d like. Um, but Jarek would also take it a step further with his optimization, saying, hey, if you got rid of one lot, you could fit one, two, three,

01:22:07,600	four, five, six. You can fit about nine more lots in there. Um, and maybe those aren’t as desirable, but if you sell one lot for $200,000 or nine lots for $50,000 a piece, that shakes out a little bit. I can answer any questions about the roadway or, uh, stuff that kind of happened with that.

01:22:26,630	On Jack’s engineering side of things. Since we got here. Uh, I think what Abe told me was that, um, if you bring Derek Lane out to the south, Collins there, uh, it’s like 12ft too high for the Clover Grove people because they. It doesn’t work for all of their basements.

01:22:49,830	And it’s like it’s not the right pitch, like right level. So they would have to bring the road down 12ft to make their development work. And then if you bring the road down 12ft, then it goes from 8% to 10%, or who knows what it exacerbates the slope problem that we have there.

01:23:10,900	So if we remember when we talked about Clover Grove, um, does not tie in to this point, they tie up further north. Um, so there is plenty of room there to make up that grade in that road and not on this road to affect the grade of minority steep road, 8% is more than manageable for anything.

01:23:29,100	But obviously we don’t want to make that steeper. Right? Chair Robinson. Who just. Had a. Okay, you bring that road and you said that there’s that easement there running north and south. Who’s responsible for building a road in that easement.

01:23:45,900	So that would then be since it’s already public right of way, it would just be a street improvement district, like we improve in the other street in town because currently it’s just a gravel. It shows. It’s a private road now though, right? Correct. I believe it’s a public access easement so we can make improvements to it.

01:23:58,000	Can you pull up that one that like what is the grade further south like we’re proposing lot 10 or 11 whatever. I don’t want to take your house away. Sorry, but I’m just like is there is it get steeper the further south you get? Yeah.

01:24:15,130	So you can see the contour lines down here and you can see that anything further south would end up just being a more expensive road, because you’d have a lot more fill to bring in. Okay. You just have to build that road, grade up, and then you also have to also extend that north south road further south, which adds cost.

01:24:27,270	You know, the more pavement you put down, just the more expensive it’s going to end up being. As they continue south, it goes uphill. Chair Commissioners, I, I think one of the main points here is that the request from city staff is simply to preserve the access to the East.

01:24:52,870	There may be need for variation between different road lengths, widths. When you get there, the chances that this road will ever be needed are honestly fairly slim. It’s just a matter of attempting to preserve the connectivity between the two and maintain the ability for that southeast area and southwest area as they develop to have additional access points into the community.

01:25:15,800	Um, I think that’s all I have. Sorry. Thanks. Let me ask you this, Rachel and city staff, let’s say we do approve it as is. Does it impact applications going forward? For the same reasoning. Uh, Chair Robinson, like Mitch pointed out, Chief Bitz for this piece of this development, it would work.

01:25:58,530	But when we look at planning, obviously we try to look forward and it severely hamstrings what can be done. I know we’re not going to get back into the remoteness section, but and Jared pointed this out if if you keep taking a road and you keep going further south on the west side, you’re not you’re gonna not

01:26:16,730	meet it. And they had a they had that circle chart pulled up. It meets it currently. But as you go it’s not gonna end at that point. No. Good. Yeah. Yeah. And I just want Mike to understand that, that there’s a there’s a bigger picture here to.

01:26:33,770	Well I don’t understand what he just said. What how does that how does it get worse as you go south. Chair Commission. I can take that one. The further south you go, the more development you put onto the same two roads.

01:26:59,070	Your ability to service those developments for their south of this one that we’re talking about becomes less because you have the same two roads servicing a greater number of school, commercial, residential, whatever it is. Right. Um, off of the same two roads that are sufficient for this particular development.

01:27:19,730	And so in order to maintain your future development capacity to the south of this development, we are asking for a connectivity to additional areas. And if there’s a way to provide it in the south area to the east or to the south, further than awesome, then this road becomes not needed and we can vacate it.

01:27:36,930	Right? But we’re attempting to preserve the develop ability of the properties to the south. So I understand that is why is it not okay to go to to Eighth Avenue for the future needs of the south South of us, because we’re already been talking about that with you guys, about getting it into a position where it can handle traffic.

01:27:59,730	And it would be another access road. So we have the map pulled up that shows the kind of the diagonal distance that we’ve gone through. So you can see this entire development, including the lot to the right side of what would no longer be called Lyford Court.

01:28:20,000	We’re calling that, um, is in that circle. But then as you go south, those are still the same two roads. So you add a whole nother subdivision, and now you add that as your diagonal so that no longer becomes that point. It gets narrower.

01:28:43,600	So this map, even though you would add more, really wouldn’t change that. So that’s that’s what we’re getting at is this one. Yes. As we’ve said is good. So are you saying that the no matter how far south we go, we’re always going to be measuring from 19th Street. So it’s it’s the theory that we have for remoteness saying.

01:29:04,870	And what, what the book is getting at is if you had these two access points on the north side of the interstate and you ran just those two roads and ran eighth all the way straight south, you’re telling me that that would be approved fire access if we still had just those two up by the interstate?

01:29:23,530	No, that’s not that’s not what it says. You have to take the entirety of it. This one is showing just this subdivision, though, right? But that’s why I.

01:29:45,070	Am suggesting or offering to go with fourth, you know, we would waive those 2 or 3 lots, whatever we need to, to get Fourth Avenue down to the Montessori land. So are you saying that we would not be allowed to measure the diagonals from that point? We’d have to go all the way back up to 19th to do the diagonal measuring. For the new development. Yeah.

01:30:06,970	I mean, it’s frustrating because we’re not really here to talk about everything solid, but it keeps coming in. Right. But we’re but I guess as staff, what we’re attempting to once again is we need to have some way in the future for the, for the South. And by adding some planning for a right of way, that’s what we’re trying to to accomplish. So you.

01:30:29,200	Guys are let me just clarify a little bit. You guys are looking for fire from the to the south or keeping it something to the south as well as long and connectivity to the east. Correct. So you’re looking at big picture what’s going to get developed in the south and connectivity.

01:30:44,130	Correct. Those are the two things staff’s looking at. So it’ll help you a little bit I think that’s what they’re shooting for. Yeah I think I think I understood that.

01:31:04,500	But I don’t understand like how the it just seems like this is all judgment and it’s just whack a mole, you know, whatever problems we solved and you guys come up with other stuff to complicate it and they go, well, what about this? And what if there’s, you know, there’s there’s a slew of down by 48? Should we be concerned about that? It’s like then you guys I mean, we got to deal with today’s real world. Like not stuff. 50 years.

01:31:23,100	This is. 50 years. Chair Robinson. I guess that was why I kind of brought up the point that, unfortunately, it does become contingent upon what’s done South. That’s just the reality of it. We know, you know, it’s it’s not a slew in Fort Yates. We know you’re going to be doing something there.

01:31:42,870	So without it with yes, you can look at your radius circles right now and it meets for this phase right now. But it isn’t going to work once you start getting developing farther south. And we everybody knows we need to do some development in farther south. And that’s why in you you guys can correct me if I’m wrong.

01:32:01,300	But the idea is that you’re going to have aith my, my idea and my mind of making this work is you have access through eighth, you have access through fourth. And if that right of way by Clover Grove there that’s what I was saying.

01:32:20,730	If you could go with fourth and go farther south to where you get out of some of this elevation issue, and then go east and tie into that access. Now you’ve got three points of access into all of this future development down here. Plus it covers your development right now. That’s what I’m trying to wrap my head around.

01:32:36,500	And unfortunately, like I said, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about the future. We’re only talking about this little piece right now. And we know that there’s going to be more stuff coming south, you know? So and in my mind are am I thinking correctly that we almost have to we can’t approve this plot the way it is right

01:32:53,930	now because it doesn’t have. Chair permission. Even if we tried to approve this right now, the way it is right now, it wouldn’t pass muster in the final plot anyway. We would recommend denial as is right now because of those issues that you mentioned. Again, we don’t anticipate.

01:33:17,030	We anticipate probably that this south area will get developed and there will be another access point to the east, and therefore this easement will not be needed. But we have we have to plan for it, that professionally, our job is to look 50 years in the future. At least 25, at least 25 years. Mr.

01:33:36,600	chairman, could I comment? Uh, there’s been an awful lot of debate on this. I’m not sure how far we’re going to get on it. Where I’m at personally is, uh, if the developer, um, extended fourth down south as he is offered taking those lots out of there.

01:33:59,600	Um, I’m just concerned with, uh, even the staff has said it’s very slim chance that we’re going to use the proposed East Line that they have. And, um, that proposed right of way. You know, I agree with the developer. That greatly diminishes the entire project.

01:34:25,670	Um, so where I’m at, if we had a plot that came back and extended that South line, that does give us Fleckibility in the future, whether we go further south and then over east, but at least we have Fleckibility in the future. So that’s what I’d like to see. As it does seem like a real possibility, the actual physical access will occur farther south. Excuse me, Mr.

01:34:58,870	Chair Commissioners, if I may, I the Fourth Avenue proposal proposed concept would would almost be virtually the same amount of development. It would. I don’t think it would allow for the, um, proposal of the Montessori further south that we’ve been told is going to happen at some point. Is that I don’t see how Fourth Avenue eliminates the need for the secondary road.

01:35:19,100	I think I think what he’s getting at is, is eventually when that plan comes through, the connectivity to the East will occur in that space. Right there, kicking the can to the next development. We move the connectivity east road further south. Do your point.

01:35:41,970	A lot of this stuff is for Mike, and his team has been very good, but a lot of it has been verbal and the ball has been changed or moved a little bit. Um, another example that we haven’t had a chance to review that. So I just wanted to point out that I don’t know what that’s a concrete solution tonight without seeing it on paper.

01:35:56,500	In my $0.02, I get what the city is trying to do, but I, I have a real problem that we might use if we have this easement for this potential road that could happen 30 years from now. You’re tying up land for 30 years. That’s not right to the property owners either, I don’t think.

01:36:12,170	I mean, if there’s something they were going to put in right away. Yes, but for the potential, there could be a road in 20 years. I don’t like that option. So it strikes me we have probably two viable options tabling to allow time for something different to come back.

01:36:36,000	Um, pursuing some of the ideas that have been shared here this evening, or denying. And so I guess my question would be to Mr. LaForge, if he is open to, um, to taking a look at at what was discussed on, on forth and having further conversations and, and getting something and in writing and bringing that back again in the future.

01:36:55,770	All due respect, I’m not I’m not interested in I’m not going to agree to more delays. I want you to deny me then and I’ll go from there. That’s if that’s what you think is appropriate. The public comment. Yes. I wasn’t. Sure. So. Um. Commissioner and. Chairman Ronnie. Lafferty, I live at 222 Cobblestone Loop, Southwest.

01:37:27,300	Um, and. I’m not sure what’s going on. It seems like we’re not moving forward. We’re moving backwards. I think, uh, I understand your role in advising and looking 50 years down the road, but I think at the last meeting it was discussed that this or very similar plat map was approved

01:37:48,570	three times. And I believe the second time it was approved, there was plats that went south where Mike is talking about the the Montessori land. Um, and it sounds like there’s not a lot of faith in the pub or Clover Grove happening, which would really necessitate that road, or that’s what’s necessitating

01:38:17,400	that road. Now, the connectivity issue, um, but if at some point in the future that road is needed for connectivity and Clover Grove never happens, who pays for that? South Collins development? Who pays for that road that goes up right next to my house? Is that going to be

01:38:40,330	all of the lots that are in titles, or does the owner of what is now referred to as Clover Grove? Does he have to pay a portion of that, even if it’s not developed? Because that was the the intent was the connectivity issue.

01:39:01,930	Mike was going to have to pay half and Clover Grove was going to have to pay half. But now it’s sounding like if that road gets put in, we’re going to be paying for all of it. And I don’t know how that benefits me. I know it benefits the fire department and it benefits the people that would live south of me. But how is it benefit me? And yet.

01:39:25,700	We’re saying that we’re going to make him wait to next month. I don’t know that we really talked about anything new that we haven’t talked about in the past. I feel I feel Mike’s frustration. I’m a little frustrated because I’m just seeing specials in my future.

01:39:51,530	When I’m 15 months from being on Social Security and having to pay for this road that goes down to South Collins, and then probably having to pay for part of South Collins as well. So that’s all I wanted to share. Seems like we’ve gone backwards. Hey, thank you. Good evening. Chair Robinson and commissioners. Thank you. My name is Tricia Schlosser. I’m the broker owner of century 21.

01:40:21,300	Morrison. And Mike is our client, obviously. And first of all, I just want to start by saying that the city, uh, city staff has been great. Uh Chief Bitz. Thank you for all of this. I wasn’t here at the last meeting. I’ve been watching this from afar, so I do understand that.

01:40:43,130	I do feel like. And I would concur with this gentleman back here, that it feels like we’re going backwards a little bit. And I think that today was supposed to be about fire. And I understand connectivity. But the ball keeps moving.

01:41:02,300	So I really, um, Mike has been trying to find a way to make this work. Uh, he wants this to work, clearly. And I think the city of Mandan wants this to work. Um, so him trying to find that compromise with forth going south, trying to find that way, if South Collins, uh, if there’s a way that we can come further south. Uh, I don’t know that answer.

01:41:24,900	I know that that grade is there whether you’re going up, uh, into that lot. Uh, and I don’t know if you’ve ever driven that road with the 15% or the 12% grade. Uh, I know some of the neighbors have had some cars slide down into there.

01:41:42,930	You know, it’s kind of eventful when there’s ice. I certainly I’m all about safety. I’m all about fire safety, about safety for consumers, for homeowners. I am actually more worried that that’s a through street and people coming up and down that street, uh, and that that would increase the traffic in the street.

01:42:03,930	And it already is steep. Like many Mandan streets. Uh, speaking from experience, as a broker of 16 years, uh, just talking about, uh, buyer and seller behavior, uh, even if there’s no road there, if there is just an easement right now, that will still impact the value of those lots, it will still impact

01:42:26,200	whether a homeowner is going to say, I’m going to stay here or not. And when they move, it’s going to impact their value of their home.

01:42:46,100	Now, I can’t give you a crystal ball and say it’s going to be a 10% impact or a 1,520% impact, but it will impact buyer behavior and buyer set the market. Uh, so just for the homeowners in that section, that exists right now, it’s going to impact them. And something to consider. Uh, so I know that my understanding of this, this again, I think the sentiment is there. We want this to move forward.

01:43:09,470	Uh, I just I think today was supposed to be about fire, but it has become about connectivity. And I completely understand that respect that we need city planning. We need that 50 years down the road. Um, but I think we can find another way with this. Thank you. Thank you. Good evening. Commissioners.

01:43:40,070	Uh, Justin Glaser I live on 230 Cobblestone Loop. Um, Renee is my my neighbor. Um, so I think. And I’ve had wonderful communication with Mike. I’ve never had a developer that actually involved his neighbors in what he’s trying to do, right? About his grand vision. Not many developers that do that. Right.

01:44:06,170	Um, so I’m a little frustrated because I’ll same point that Renee said this has been approved multiple times. Guys and gals. And now we’ve got different people in city government. And now we say it’s about connectivity. Okay, that proposed easement, what are we really connecting to? Connecting to Clover Grove because that’s where it goes.

01:44:34,900	That’s it. 19th is your east west thoroughfare and always will be. Taking a couple of lots and making fourth and eight. You’re through streets to the south. I have no issues with that. In actually your connectivity to what would be future Collins South. Take it behind the cul de sac.

01:45:01,670	That’s where the value is in this development. It’s the cul de sac, and we want to just piece out lot lots that Mike can’t use that money to develop the grander plan. In my mind, that’s not right, especially since this has been approved multiple times. This exact plot, right.

01:45:27,200	Clover Grove gets brought into the picture and now we want to change the game. Connecting to Clover. Clover. I’m going to get hit with $10,000 worth of specials after I’ve already paid 27 for road. I’m never going to use it. Doesn’t make any sense.

01:45:44,270	We got to use a little logic, some common sense here that right away easement. What are you connecting to? You’re not connecting to anything. If you want to get to Clover Grove, drive out on 19th and make a right hand, turn, you’re in. That’s my comments. Thank you. Any final comments? None.

01:46:22,700	How close? We turn it back to the commission? Chair Robinson and commissioners. Um, Jim Neubauer city administrator. I just want to stand here and defend public. Our staff for. I think we have put a ton of time and energy in trying to find a solution here, even though it may not agree with the developer.

01:46:39,430	In this case, this project has been before us many times. We have tried diligently to work out a solution. I think Jericho has done a very good job of trying to find that solution.

01:46:56,930	We presented that to the developers, and I think that we talk about connectivity, and our job is really to not only look for next year, two years from now, five years from ten years and 50 years from now. So that’s our job as city staff is trying to protect the interests of this community, not just a developer. At the present time.

01:47:12,730	So again, I want to commend that Eric and our staff have done a yeoman’s job of trying to find solutions here. This project about bringing a school and event center and things like that south of this development changes kind of the game, and it certainly has a different aspect that wasn’t presented in the times when this plat was presented in the

01:47:32,070	past. So again, I just want to say that our folks have done a great job. I think that we’re looking out for not only today, but also for the next 50 years for this community. Jim, I want to say. your staff. Did a great job. I wasn’t trying to be.

01:47:48,900	I just was asking hard questions. So sorry, but I think they did a great job. They always do a good. Job. If I may chair Robinson commissioners, I think the city of Mandan has done a great job in city staff too, on this project. I agree. Mr. chairman, I if Mr.

01:48:11,600	Lovering would prefer us to deny versus table, he’s still prefer that. I. I prefer approval. Yeah I understand. I mean I’m not being facetious. I don’t understand why why don’t you approve it. What’s the problem. Well, I think that’s been debated for over an hour now. And a couple hours as well as with your meetings.

01:48:37,200	Um, for me, as I said before, I, I would be satisfied if we came back and we had a a South road, additional south road. I just feel that opens up so many options for you and for the city. Once the South and once the plans are decided, what’s going to happen down there? Do you mean fourth? Fourth? Yeah, yeah.

01:48:58,570	And then ultimately, the next plan would have to have connectivity back to the east. Um, that’s basically the message we’re getting here. So., Chair Robinson, how far does that that North-South easement there. How far south does that go from 19th Street. We got a map on that. No, we couldn’t. See it.

01:49:26,500	I think it goes down to about the south line of this title’s fifth. It goes down to about the South line of this title’s fifth. So if this is sorry, I can use the map up there.

01:49:43,930	I guess what I was getting at is, I mean, how far, how far south down does it go into? You know, where it’s paralleling, you know, Mike’s future. Lots and lots to the south. There it so this is the boundary of titles. Fifth, the proposed. Far south. From this is the. Proposed because there’s a house there, right? Yep. This is how far the proposed easement goes or not.

01:50:11,900	The proposal of the existing access easement goes there. We go. Back to the north to 19th. And then I would go back to the north to 19th. Yep. So that access easement sorry this mouse. Is being weird. Um, that access easement exists. So this is sorry.

01:50:25,230	I’ll zoom out a little. So this is 19th. It comes down to this. I believe it’s a half section. Line. Um, to to the end of of this. But Clover Grove’s property ends here. Okay.

01:50:48,600	And Mike does your, does your property that are to the south does that does that go straight south from that? We’re that easement that access road is so so if so if you had I guess what I’m getting at is if you had to jog that road to get around that house, that’s there south, you still could put a road farther south.

01:51:11,000	You know, where you can come off of, you know, I’m I keep coming back to coming off of fourth Street because in my mind, unless I’m just way off base here, it’s going to take any further development farther south than where you’re where we’re talking about right now is going to need more than two points of access, no matter

01:51:26,670	what happens. If you plan on developing that farther south, you’re going to have to have more than eighth and fourth Street no matter what. Somehow there’s going to have to be another access to that property. Am I correct? And what I’m thinking here. Correct.

01:51:43,730	So if there’s a retreat center that I have to have two points of access. You’re going to need more than two points because you’re too far away from 19th Street. The farther you get away from 19th Street, the more roads of access you need to that development. That’s why I keep coming back to that, to that road between you and and Clover Grove.

01:52:03,970	If a guy can make that a road that extends farther south into your new development, then you can connect fourth to that one. Now you’ve made everybody happy because now you’ve got actually three points of access into that development instead of the two that you have right now.

01:52:28,400	Or am I way off base here? And I understand there’s no topography involved in grades involved, but, uh. It’s a ravine. I know it. I guess we’re at. I mean, I’m just going to ask you, mister, I know you proposed the fourth to the South. I mean, that’s where we’re at. Like, we’re trying to kick the can to the next development, but.

01:52:45,700	So you don’t want us to table it till you get that plot. So we actually have something we can approve. You’d rather have to deny it. Yes. Yeah. I’m not. So you want. You. Talking about. 50 acres? Yeah. That’s not mine. Okay. It’s belongs to the non-profit corporation. Okay. The Montessori group. Right. And I’m one of the board members, but I’m not. It’s not mine. Rachel.

01:53:26,030	Chair Commission. Just to try to simplify, I think if you table. So if if the plat that’s in front of you tonight does not include an easement to the east or fourth going through to the south.

01:53:43,930	So currently in the plot that’s in front of you tonight, there would be the opportunity for eighth to go to the South in a at a future point. And there would be the opportunity for sixth to go to the South. But there is no connection from sixth on to 19th. So, um, the the plat in front of you does not have that connection to fourth. We’re not asking, though.

01:54:06,300	I don’t think for anything to the south of this property. Right. It would just be taking out the lot that fourth would connect to the South to create the connection. So do you, I guess.

01:54:26,030	Do you want me to go over kind of like the three options, either to approve the plot that’s in front of you with no fourth approve it, contingent on him coming back with an updated plat prior to city commission or preliminary plat, or prior to final plat to deny as presented or to table so we can come back with an updated plan. I think for Mike, the challenge here is we don’t have Abe in on the discussion.

01:54:51,530	He has to do all the work between now and the city Commission meeting. All the discussion prior to a couple of weeks ago or even a week ago was the East. It’s connectivity to the east. That’s it. I mean, we got to have connectivity to the east. And then it changed like, no, no, no, no, no.

01:55:12,800	We’re going to focus on the South on property that I don’t even know. And I got to come up with some solution to that. So that’s that’s not what I intended.

01:55:28,630	By focusing on the South, I’m looking for an alternative where you can then connect to the East without having to without having to do this proposed right away through your prime, uh, cul de sac. And I don’t want to see that happen. So I’m trying to we’re trying to come up with another alternative where you can go south. You’re going to need that eventually, probably. Anyway. But.

01:55:46,970	But I was under the impression that from staff that you guys would take like you, you would approve it contingent upon the plat doing like the Fourth Avenue thing and showing that. That’s one option. , that. That’s one option that, uh, she’s presented.. Chair Robinson I guess that’s what I would ask the city.

01:56:10,530	Would the city would the city be okay with continuing Forest Street down to the, you know, straight south and then forgetting about the easement through lift Riggs court? Would the city agree to that? Chair Commissioners I think the preference would. still be from city staff to.

01:56:35,200	Have the connection to the east, and that would be our recommendation if it went forward to city commission as well. Um, but we would happily also accept the fourth Street, uh, or fourth Ave going to the south, because that would again provide additional connectivity and additional opportunities for development of the South properties. Mr. chairman, I’m going to try to make a motion here.

01:57:07,330	I would move to approve the plat contingent upon coming back and being amended to allow for access south by fourth. If I can second, it. Um, motion by Commissioner Smith, second by Commissioner McLean motion is to recommend approval of the plat and amended form to provide access to the South. She probably had fourth to that. Provide access to the south off of fourth. Okay, I’ll repeat that. For all.

01:58:11,100	Recommendation to approve the plat and amended form to provide access to the south off of fourth Avenue. Chair Would. that plat be coming back to planning and zoning as a preliminary plat, or is this to go forward to city commission as preliminary plat with the amendment, or is it to come back at final plat with the amendment?

01:58:36,170	I believe what we are discussing here to go to the city after, if they can prep it soon enough? Yeah, it would be my intent. Okay. Any questions with the motion? None. Roll call. Vote, please. Commissioner Huber? Yes. Commissioner Lang? Yes, Commissioner Mudder. Yes. Mayor Froelich. Commissioner McLean. Yes. Commissioner Smith. Yes. Commissioner Hammond. No. Commissioner Commissioner Renner.

01:59:22,630	Yes. Chair Robinson. Yes. Motion has passed. Anything else? You guys deserve a pay raise. I’ll entertain a motion to adjourn. Do we have a second? We have a motion second to adjourn. All in favor, signify by saying I. Aye. Opposed? Same. Same sign. We are